True Story - What would you do?

I am recently in an airport and I am sitting in the waiting area for boarding. From the corner of my eye I see a young fellow wearing a black t-shirt with letters on it that says "INTOLERANT" and I saw the name Jesus on there too. I walked up to take a closer look and the shirt had the verse John 14:6 about Jesus being the way, the truth and the life on it. I see it and I agree that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life - but I wasn't comfortable with the large INTOLERANT letters used as it kind of looked like it was putting that word in the verse itself. I sort of was indicating that Jesus would be shouting out "INTOLERANT" by the way it looked. (you can click on the shirt image for a larger look at it).

Then I saw the back of the shirt. It had the large all caps words "HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN"  "ISLAM IS A LIE"  "ABORTION IS MURDER" and in smaller letters it said "some issues are just black and white". I was taken back when I first saw the back of the shirt and how large the words it used were. I sat down looking at the young guy wearing the shirt. He was probably around 25 years old. Athletic looking type. He eventually stood up to get in the line as they called everyone to get on board. The shirt was blatantly obvious and everyone was looking at it who was in the line behind him. I saw a little kid looking at it. Men, women, of different races looking at it. Jesus' name on the front, and these large statements on the back clearly designed for people to read and easily see it.

As we stood and slowly moved in the corridor getting into the plane, I was wondering if someone who was Islam was in the line reading it. Or someone gay. Or a woman who had an abortion.

I was wondering what messages this would say to people reading it about Christians to the two dozen or so people I saw looking at it in the line.

I wondered where the guy got the shirt (since then I did a search and found the organization who makes them). People in a neutral airport minding their own business now having this shirt in front of them having to read it. I understand the underlying motive in what he believed about what the shirt said. But even if he believes that, I wondered how effective the method in what he was doing by wearing the shirt was.

I wondered what Jesus (whose name was on the front of the shirt) thinks of this?

I wondered how we would feel if we saw a t-shirt in an aiport saying CHRISTIANITY IS A LIE. It is a free country. I kept going back and forth in my mind about wanting to say something and ask him something. I finally did go say something to him and had a brief conversation.

I am curious however, before I say what I asked him - what would you think about this shirt? What do you think Jesus would think of this? Approval? Disapproval? Is this effective in representing a voice of Jesus, as shown on the front of the shirt, to the people in the airport?

What would you have said to this person? Or not say anything at all?

I am not asking this for maybe what seems an obvious answer. But what are the serious reasons and even biblical principles for whatever we may think of this shirt? Not just an emotional reaction, but what would the argument be to wear or not wear this shirt as a follower of Jesus. And if you could ask or say something to the guy wearing it, what would that be?

Comments

[glocks out]

Here's my story:

I used to be one of those people who knew what is right, because things are either right or wrong. I wore shirts that said things like, "Abortion is mean," and I got cussed, jeered, etc. I'm sure that's a great witness for Christ! I must have been doing something right because the world hated me for it.

Not so much. Being a jerk is why people hated me, not because I was a Christian.

I now where shirts that say, "Religion Kills," and while they are pretty harsh on the surface, I get a much different reaction. When I go out wearing that shirt I get, "Right on," and "Amen!" It opens doors to share what it means, and share Christ's love. This is a message Christians need to hear and non-christians want to hear: Grace. One woman stopped me and asked about it and I explained how the Church tears each other apart through legalism, and the need for rules. I explained how religion is man's construct and faith is a gift from God. The shirt I had on that day had a tommy gun on it symbolizing what is created with good intentions ended up bearing the image of crime, murder and hate. Religion is like that; good intentions but now given an image of hate, elitism and legalism.

This opens doors for communication, and spreading the GOSPEL OF PEACE, the good news of Jesus Christ who is Lord! After all, Jesus did send us into the world to preach the gospel, His resurrection, not a republican agenda.

And even though this brother was misguided, I praise the Lord all the same. Rejoice in the Lord always, in everything give thanks.

By the way, if you want one of those shirts (Religion Kills) visit http://www.vivalarevolution.org/

[glocks out]

I think Jesus would be against this shirt because it does not have a collar. Every good christian wears collars.

[Ryan]

What a dumb ass shirt.

[rita]

Are you ever going to post Part 2?! We've been waiting for two weeks!!!

[Greg Hazelrig]

It's a shame that this shirt was even made. I doubt I would say anything because I am a wuss, except when the Holy Spirit is working through me. But if that were the case, I would most likely ask if he were mad at Christ or at people who interpret Christ. Then hopefully we would could talk about the love of Christ as opposed to the judgement of Christ.

[Tony Myles]

If I saw the guy, I'd say, "Give you a quarter for the shirt."

Then I'd wash his feet with it.

[jason]

Wow, a long thought provoking blog over a T-Shirt...kind of humorous I must admit...I am in line with what Dave P said about wearing the shirt that says "Jesus loves Homosexuals"

This all relates me back to a sermon by Rob Bell called Beautiful Anger. This message is clearly where I stand in my faith today. What makes you mad? Where do you channel your anger? Does it go to things that in the end clearly dont matter, or do you channel it for the good as Jesus did? The biggest problem I have with that T-Shirt is it speaks for "Christians" as a whole, and yet there are so many of us who do not agree with that. Thus my fascination for wanting to "change the adjectives" as Rob put.
Here is a clip from that message to ponder:
www.emergingconversation.com/BeautifulAnger.mp3

**Note - message from Rob Bell - Mars Hill Bible Church - Copyright applies to them***

[Cleave]

Yah, I'm sure this shirt was inspired by Dobson's book. I met Dobson in Idaho at a concert that he was speaking at.

I still have major issues with his book, Be Intolerant. He also commented on my blog, here.

[Dave Parker]

I'm explaining this entry to a friend of mine and before sharing my thoughts I ask him, "What do you think?"

He tells me that the first thing that came to his mind is the following verse from Luke9:51-56:

"When the days were approaching for His ascension, He was determined to go to Jerusalem; and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem. When His disciples James and John saw {this,} they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?' But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, 'You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'] And they went on to another village.

Wow. I think this is worth considering as this discussion continues.

[Dave Parker]

As I'm reading I'm thinking, "I would NEVER wear a shirt like this." As a matter of fact, I think I'd be more inclined to wear a shirt that says in BOLD letters: "JESUS LOVES HOMOSEXUALS".

If I were to wear the "Jesus Loves Homosexuals" shirt, I'd bet that I would have more opportunities to engage with people: Those that don't consider themselves "Christian" and ESPECIALLY those that do ;-)

[Big Mike Lewis]

Jesus did not treat people this way, so I don't think he would approve of it.

I read Ryan Dobson's book, Be Intollerant. It was good, but not something I would give a pre-Christian.

Tact please.

Almost as bad as godhatesfags.com

[Preston Kincaid]

Well, it is nice, first of all to see people intelligently debating/discussing these types of ideas and philosophies. Openly questioning, and discussing. And also, not to be rebuked and "set straight" by my comments about no longer considering myself a Christian. I will definately be coming to Vintage Faith soon, and I am happy to finally see people discussing the real issues that leave gaping holes in Christianity, instead of merely citing scriptures and "reading in" your position in an attempt to plug them. I have had zero luck getting answers to some of the real tough questions, because most of the time Christians feel like I am nibbling (attacking?) their belief system, rather than seeing that I am earnestly trying to gain real answers in my life-long search for the truth. Asking and debating is the only way not to receive a canned answer, that has been regurgitated from some Sunday service, without any intelligent thought or discernment. I hope I find the same open minds when it comes time to intelligently debate the issues and help boil out some answers, or fodder for thought. --

The hug idea doesn't sound bad either! ;)

-PK

[Dan Schuessler]

I apologize for the confusion. The post on Jan 15th at 11:29am is not from Dan Kimball. It's from me...so I hope that wasn't the reason to take your conversation to an email one.

[Danny Wright II]

sure you can email me james!

[james]

Danny,

I appreciate your comment. And I'm fine if you think it lacks "intellectual stability." But i think you've drawn an incorrect conclusion from my statement. I haven't dragged the Presidency into the discussion, I merely cited an example to prove your statement, that if something is false in only one segment, it is false as a whole. This is simply invalid. I cited the Presidency only as an example. I could have used your and my lives as examples. I have done things in my life that have been clearly wrong, and I have lived a lie. Is my life as a whole then, a big lie? I could cite the same for any of our lives.

Now your last statement, "If i'm not willing to acknowledge their theology is wrong and has devestating consequences, why evangelize."

Bingo. This is spot on. Believeing one's theology is wrong is very different than believing their religion is a lie. And as Fletch pointed out earlier, you believe this based on faith. You cannot prove this as fact or an absolute. It is faith. Which is why the shirt is very problematic to begin with.

Since Dan (Kimball) has commented shall we move the discussion to an email conversation? Can I email you?

respectfully,

james

[Dan]

The main stream that I read from the majority of the post is the freedom in everything has said. whether it be right or wrong; theologically based or sound; but one thing is for sure that we all have our own opinion. Which brings me back to the original statement that God (Jesus) is the way, truth and life. The other main point that is left out is: no one comes to the father but through me. If we look at what it means to go through jesus, his character, personality, beliefs, etc. If John 1:1 is correct that in the begining the word was with God and the word was God. Than what does the word say about these three statements? The bible does say that homosexuality is a sin but right next to that he also writes gossip. How many of us enjoy to gossip? that's the same exact sin a sexual imorality. Psalm 139 says that God knew us even before he knitted us into our mothers womb. So for another human to choose to kill that would be considered murdering another life. Islam is a true religion based off a rebelious behavior. Ishmal rebelled against abraham and muhammed against ishmal. If you read the Q'ran it is based off of reblious behavior, fear, worry. Christ has said...cast all your care upon me for I care for you. In Philipians it says be anxious for nothing but through prayer and suplication. Christianity is all about choice. You choose whether to cast your cares or not to. whether or not you choose to believe christ is the way, truth and life and no one comes to the father except through knowing jesus. Intolerance is not a negative thing to have. Jesus was intolerant to the Pharasees and Saducees of his day. I have always loved the line Christ loves you where you at but loves you more to just leave you there.

the shirt would have read better if it said.. Intolerant
Jesus is the way the truth and the life...

back: Knock Knock
I stand at the door and knock whoever opens the door I will come in sit with him and dine. God's love is intolerant to just leave you a sinner.

[danny Wright II]

james,

i mean this politely, and i wish we could have this conversation in person, rather than over a blog. please believe me when i say i mean no ill will and just want to have an honest conversation.

your argument lacks intellectual stability. i have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and over generalized, but you've brought the presidency into a discussion of theology?????

does islam describe a god who is arbitrary and may or may not let people into eternity? yes, the koran clearly does. does it teach that allah chose ishmael over isaac? yes it does. does it clearly teach that Jesus was not divine (the dome of the rock has clearly inscribed upon it "allah is the only god and he has no sons." a clear attack on christianity). does the Bible teach the opposite on each of these issues? clearly.

as for denominations and differences within the church...i think we can honestly say there's a difference between mode of baptism and mode of salvation. do i believe that infant baptism is a misinterpretation of the Scriptures? i do (please don't get caught up on that issue, just see it as an example). and i would expect my presbyterian brother to feel that i am wrong.

frankly, i'd expect a muslim to believe that christianity is a lie. otherwise, he's not very committed to his own faith system. we believe differently, and we should be able to admit that.

again, that doesn't mean that EVERY element of islam is wrong. but when there very method of entry of the kingdom is different than what Scripture defines (and quite frankly, there idea of the kingdom is different too), it's not out of line to say it is a lie.

if i'm not willing to acknowledge their theology is wrong and has devestating consequences, why evangelize? why not just leave them alone to believe what they want since it's ok? then we're right back to the issue of speaking the truth in love. there is not motivation to speak at all.

[james]

Brian,

You said "If I say abortion is wrong, it is because it is wrong." and you said "Abortion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that all murder is not justified."

Do you really mean this? Essentially what you are saying is, "If I say it's wrong then it IS wrong." and "In some cases murder is justified." This doesn't sound like a Kingdom ethic to me. And it sounds as if you're saying you have a corner on absolute values. Make no mistake, I agree with you that abortion isn't right. But again, what are you going to do about it?

And how can you cite the 50 million innocents who have been killed by abortions, and then turn and justify war? Hundreds of millions of innocents have been exterminated due to war, yet this is okay to you?

Danny,

I'm going to have to disagree with your definition of a lie when you say, "it just has to be untrue in some way." If such is the case the whole of Bush's Presidency is a lie (like him or not, he's lied at least once) as by your definition all it takes is being untrue in some way. Do you think Catholicism is untrue in some way? How about the Southern Baptists or the Presbyterians? Perhaps even Lutheranism or Methodism? Is Catholicism, Methodism, Presbyterianism and the like all a lie?

Just saying that I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm going to default to Lewis on this one:

"If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through . . . But, of course being a Christian does mean thinking that where Christianity differs from other religions, Christianity is right and they are wrong." - C.S. Lewis "Mere Chrtistianity, Book II - What Christians Believe.

[fletch]

brian,

it is only your opinion that "islam is a false religion - it leads straight to hell. It's a false religion from satan and muhammed is dead in the grave. Jesus however is alive and kickin" it is something you take on faith.

as james has said previously, there are many "truths" that islam and christianity have in common and to say that islam is a lie is to deny those things we have in common.

"War can be justified when it means one guilty person is killed preventing hundreds, thousands, millions of people's lives. Abortion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that all murder is not justified."

again, this is just your opinion, there are many faithful christians who do not think war is ever justified. and when you say it can be justified because "one guilty person is killed preventing hundreds, thousands, millions of people's lives." you are thinking along utilitarian lines(greatest good for the greatest number) not christian. and in war it is never only the "guilty" who are killed. what is more, who are we to decide who the "guilty" are who deserve death?

"to say "evangelicals are shallow" is no different that saying "God hates fags". it's generalizing and untrue and we know it."

ok, but isn't it also a generalization to say that islam is a lie?

[Brian]

fletch,

islam is a false religion - it leads straight to hell. It's a false religion from satan and muhammed is dead in the grave. Jesus however is alive and kickin'

james,

if I say abortion is wrong, it is because it is wrong. It has killed over 50 million innocent human beings in america since the 70's. War can be justified when it means one guilty person is killed preventing hundreds, thousands, millions of people's lives. Abortion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that all murder is not justified.

everyone,

to say "evangelicals are shallow" is no different that saying "God hates fags". it's generalizing and untrue and we know it.

[Danny Wright II]

fletch,

thank you for giving me a perfect example of what i'm talking about.

you'll jump on this guy for wearing a shirt that condemns and assumes about people he's never met

yet,

don't see the contradiction to suggest i believe the gospel is merely attaining some intellectual facts and not a complete surrender of my lifestyle to Christ.

this is what i'm talking about. everyone pats themselves (and each other) on the back while saying how glad they are that they don't condemn like this guy, but in the process are making the same errors.

[Danny Wright II]

james,

i think you misunderstood what i was saying about not saying anything (how's that for confusing it more!). i agree, the loving thing is to say something. not just "hi," or "peace" or anything else, but to say something steering them toward God and His desires. i think we often worry so much about wanting acceptance from the person that we don't say the things we need to. you're right, if you engage the person in meaningful, God-centered conversation, you have acted out in love (provided you did it in a caring way.)

if you read my previous post, i said the shirt may say factual things but that i wouldn't wear it. the fact that the statements are accurate doesn't mean it is right to bluntly spell them out to others ( a point i know i've made at least twice).

however, you gravely mistake what a lie is. a lie, by definition must not be void of all truth. it just has to be untrue in some way. remember taking true/false tests in school? if one point of the question was false, the answer was to be false, didn't matter how much truth may be in the quiz as well. islam is a lie, not because it doesn't have any truth in it, but because it's god is arbitrary, whimiscally deciding who gets into heaven and who doesn't (even muhammed stated he wasn't sure he was good enough) it espouses a "works-righteousness" hoping that your good works acheive favor with God, AND it denies the divinity of Jesus (which I John states is a big problem). therefore, to state islam is a lie is not to deny christian truths they share (such as creation or the flood).

would it be safe to tweek your last statement to say that "the gospel is a way of life that has been radically changed because of a set of absolutes (I Corinthians 15:1-6)"

[fletch]

oh but james that would be too difficult. it is much easier to simply agree with some theological concepts, vote on two issues, put our hopes for the Kingdom in the emerging empire to do what we as the People of God should be doing, give a nod to the notion of grace and mercy and love... but to actually commit to a way of life?

you are asking too much.

[james]

Danny,

But isn't loving saying something?

My contention with the aboslute that "Islam is a Lie" is that the Islamic faith shares some common beliefs with our own faith. If we call Islam a lie, we are denying portions of our own faith and this would be inaccurate.

Yes, living a homosexual lifestyle doesn't bear witness to the kingdom. But doesn't the gay community deserve the Gospel as well? While this shirt may declare it to be wrong, it's not really a great invitation to participate in the Kingdom.

Lastly on abortion. You're right it's the life taking of a human being (just like war and the death penalty are murder also), so as a follower of Jesus what are you going to do in order to extend the Kingdom to women who have lost hope and are seeking abortions? Are you willing to help them? Would you be willing you adopt one of their unwanted children?

Remember, the Gospel is more a way of life than it is a perceived set of absolutes.

[Smittie]

So, Dan, we going to get the rest of the story or what?? We're generating a lot of hate and discontent here.

Aloha

[Danny Wright II]

james,

thanks for asking for clarification.

with islam as an example. i may be so tempted to "love" the person that i can never bring myself to share the Biblical definition of saving faith. obviously, if a person gets up the guts to say something, you pray they say it in love. however, often, we are so consumed with "loving" that we don't say a thing (and thus do the most unloving thing.)

as for homosexuality, scripture calls it a sin. that doesn't mean it's worse than pride, lust, anger, or over indulgence...but it is a sin.

islam. if i believe the Bible is true, i must believe that islam is false. too many contradictions.

abortion takes something living and ends its life. that something is a human being. typically, we call that murder.

i'm not condoning a presentation of those facts in such a blunt way (even if this comment seems too direct). i wouldn't put all those facts on the same level. honestly, i would worry much more that a person understands that depending on the islamic system for salvation prevents a person from understanding the gospel in a way that a person struggling with homosexuality could still embrace the gospel message.

[james]

Danny,

You said:
"i've seen several comments to the effect of "speaking the truth in love." yes love is essential, but let's not go the other way...forgetting to speak altogether.

How can one "forget to speak altogether" when they are "speaking the truth in love." By principle of the statement aren't they in fact speaking? I don't see how saying "Islam is a lie" is more beneficial than testifying to the love of Christ through right action.

And how is it you are so certain of the accuracy of the shirt's statements?

[Danny Wright II]

wow,

so if i'm reading the comments correctly (not your post, dan) we've got no use for this guy with the shirt. his shirt wasn't loving of others, and too boldly said people are wrong...so we'll use 61 comments to say how wrong he is?

some things to applaud:

i think the man wanted to be bold about his faith. (a challenge i shrink from too often).
the man wanted conversation (i know you are probably thinking he just wanted to offend others, but i think he put that shirt on hoping it makes an impression that leads to questions).
the back of the shirt is accurate. (blunt, but factual).
call it binary or whatever, but the emmergent camp could use a little embracing of black and white every now and then.

now, does this mean i would wear the shirt? at an earlier point in my walk, probably. now? there is no way i would do it.

i've seen several comments to the effect of "speaking the truth in love." yes love is essential, but let's not go the other way...forgetting to speak altogether.

please don't be offended commentors. i enjoy dan's blog but often find the comments to sound a little, "boy am i glad i'm not stupid like all these other christians!" it's disturbing.

[Joe]

I think the guy needs a hug. Do you give hugs?

[Dan]

Hi Preston!

thank you for your comments here. I am glad that Graceland was a place you felt inviting and was part of your life back then. Vintage Faith Church is a new church that Josh and myself and others started almost 2 years ago. If you felt comfortable and identified with Graceland, then you would at VF. Same hearts behind it.

With your feelings of not being a "Christian" any longer due to things like the T-Shirt, I'd love to meet to chat about that. The reason I blogged about that, was I understand the damage it does - so I would be honored to hear where you have been the past couple of years and about what you said. Jesus is not Christian propganda or the Christian sub-culture, so we can still be Christian (a follower of Jesus) without being a follower of Christian sub-culture, t-shirts, rhetoric etc.

Let's set a time to get together....

Dan

[abbasfriend]

One more thought on this issue - I was listening to Derek Webb's album, I See Things Upside Down, this morning and was struck by the relevance of some of the lyrics of the song "T-Shirts (What We Should Be Known For)":

they'll know us by the t-shirts that we wear
they'll know us by the way we point and stare
at anyone whose sin looks worse than ours
who cannot hide the scars of this curse that we all bare

they’ll know us by our picket lines and signs
they’ll know us by the pride we hide behind
like anyone on earth is living right
and isn’t that why Jesus died
not to make us think we’re right

they’ll know us by the billboards that we make
just turning God’s words to cheap clichés
says “what part of murder don’t you understand?”
but we hate our fellow man
and point a finger at his grave

chorus
they'll know us by the t-shirts that we wear
they'll know us by the way we point and stare
telling ‘em their sins are worse than ours
thinking we can hide our scars
beneath these t-shirts that we wear

[james]

Preston,

Thanks for your honesty man. I am sorry this kind of arrogance abounds. As a follower of Christ, I just want to offer an apology.

peace,

james

[Marco Funk]

For some reason-and I'm still trying to figure out why-a verse from Romans - something about 'everybody being lost in sin' - keeps popping into my mind... ;)
peace,
Marco

[Preston Kincaid]

I accepted Christ about 8 years ago, and I attended SCBC for nearly 3 years, and then began attending the Graceland services. I have enjoyed every service at Graceland. I have since done a LOT of learning, thinking, digging, and researching and I have to report that I no longer consider myself a Christian, and this Tshirt story is precisely why. I have found that Christians for the most part are judgemental, critical, hypocritical, and an completely opposite of the Christ they purport to want to emulate. I too now believe Christians are willingly uninformed, and ignorant and in such a position should not be out spreading their "truth" especially with offensive pieces of garbage like this Tshirt. I respect the intelligent approach you guys are taking, and I deeply respect Dan and Josh. At least the Christian faith has a small chance of someday not being a right-wing, republican, ignorant group of extremists making a mockery of a religion. I would love to attend a VFC service, I'm interested to see if it has the same welcoming energy that Graceland had before it became like all the other church services. . .

[fletch]

bob said, "This line of thinking remind me of the Confession Booth in Blue Like Jazz. Maybe a shirt.
FRONT:
Evangelicals Are Shallow
I Am An Evangelical...
BACK:
...And I'm Very Very Sorry."

Now that I am certain I can say is true. Evangelicals are very very shallow. But I am not an evangelical so i have nothing to be sorry about.

[Steve Holt]

I hate this shirt for two distinct reasons:

1) Last time I checked, the Good News was supposed to be, well, good. This is neither good nor news (most of the world knows Christianity's stance on these issues).

2) The call of Christ to his followers is not to take up the picket sign (or in this case the black T-shirt with white lettering) in opposition of the world, but to take up the towel and serve like crazy. Does this mean we don't have principles or beliefs? Absolutely not. But no one is going to listen to our principles or beliefs if we aren't serving them as Jesus did.

As for what I would do if I were in Dan's shoes in the airport: All I can say is that it would be very hard for me to handle the situation in a Christ-like manner. I think sometimes I hate the arrogance displayed on that particular T-shirt (and in other arenas) more than I do any of the three items the shirt mentions.

Steve
http://harvestboston.net

[Erik Hulstrom]

Hey there everyone i took this t-shirt blog and read it to my students last night in our youth group. I had the teenagers write down their response after i read this blog to them. The responses were amazing because they wouldn't let me finish without saying how they felt about this. A student in our youth group pointed out that it isn't about who is right and wrong, but it is about Jesus. I sat there and was truly amazed at that response. This is a sensitive issue that is so important.

[Bob]

This line of thinking remind me of the Confession Booth in Blue Like Jazz. Maybe a shirt.
FRONT:
Evangelicals Are Shallow
I Am An Evangelical...
BACK:
...And I'm Very Very Sorry.

[james]

Technically, this statement is true as well:

"Evangelicals are shallow."

Shall I make a T-Shirt out of it?

(And I would say no, because it isn't helpful.)

[fletch]

to tag on to james comment in response to brians comment that,
"technically the message is right:

Homosexuality IS sin. Islam IS a lie. And Abortion IS murder"

lying, adultery, gluttony, greed, and coveting is also a sin but no one is telling liars, adulterers, gluttons, the greedy and those who covet they can't they can't have certain jobs, get married, and no one is protesting their very existance.

and if you want to say that abortion is muder i hope you are truly "pro-life" and believe that war is murder, and so is the death penalty.

"technically" the message is right bigoted.

"technically" Homosexuality IS sin. Islam IS a lie. And Abortion IS murder according to some christians, not all, and by no means is the "message" right according to those who are not followers of christ.

this kind of thinking is why folks think christians are hateful and ignorant.

[james]

Does not the Islamic faith believe in one God and Father? Does Islam also believe murder is wrong? Does Islam believe that Abraham was called by God to another land to be the father of many?

As followers of Christ, do we not also testify these things as true? Do we not share these in common with Muslims? To say "Islam is a Lie" as a blanket statement is to throw out portions of our own faith as well. I think we would be wise to refrain from throwing down a judgement card here and recognize that God hold the gavel.

[Brian]

Well, technically the message is right:

Homosexuality IS sin. Islam IS a lie. And Abortion IS murder.

But the world doesn't need this kind of crap.

[james]

Thanks for that testimony Kevin. It emphasizes that the Gospel does concern the whole person, not just pieces of who they are.

Can you imagine what the whole of Christendom might look like if every follower of Christ decided to adopt an unwanted child? I think it would look far more beautiful than if our Gov't passed a law banning abortion.

As it stands we've made women who have had, or are seeking to have, an abortion the enemy, neglecting the fact that these are broken individuals in need of the hope of the Gospel.

[Kevin I]

If you would have found me in highschool or my first few months of college, you would have found me wearing similar shirts.

I had an "us vs. them" view of life, I used scripture as a weapon and I thought that the way to reach people was to help them understand where they were wrong.

Through different people and experiences, God shook me out of this thinking quickly (mainly by reading scripture as a whole, not as little bullet points for a debate), but the t-shirts still hung around until college.

But then walking out of my college's cafe, I was wearing a shirt that condemned abortion. A woman stopped me and invited me to sit down. She said something to the effect of "If I'm someone that went through that, how do you think I'd react? What do you want that shirt to say to me?" I said something about feeling regret. She responded with soemthing to the effect of the fact that most people she knows who have had an abortion do feel regret already, she asked me what good adding regret would do. I said something about conviction. She asked me what good that would do. I said it may lead the person to find Christ. She said Christ wasn't present in my t-shirt. I said it may be a conversation starter. She said that any woman in need of a conversation about abortion, wouldn't respond to the shirt, all I'd get would be people who like to argue.

It made me realize the worthlessness of that shirt. All it was doing was attracting people like me, people who liked to argue.

The conversations started would start on the wrong foot, they'd start from a wrong approach from the get go, the same as this shirt.

Any good that is meant to be obtained would be thrown out early on.

She challenged me to try to meet people in a more compassionate fashion, to take the whole person into account and not boil them down to a set of issues. She challenged me to speak a full truth in full love, rather then huck stones blindly.

I thanked her for that and spent a season studying it. (Hopefully this example encourages the "I should talk to the t-shirt bearer" crowd, as this one short conversation from a stranger has had a major impact in my life for how I deal with people, scripture and myself)

It seems to me in scripture that apart from preaching that people attended under their own volition or from meeting the Pharisees in their language of argumentation, when Jesus says things against sin, "sin no more" type stuff, it usually follows a strong example of Jesus's love (a healing, a chasing off of attackers, a miracle). Jesus lead with love and then adressed sin later with that context established.

Jesus also had the advantage of a God's-eye view of people. Which means for me to confront sins, I'm pretty sure I want a few more steps in between myself rather then a shirt that starts out with something meant for delivery in a relationship in full compassion for the person.

[Bob]

Fletch, Actually Pat Robertson is a good example. He shoots his mouth off at every opportunity and is rapidly becoming a charicature--losing all credibility. So he can fire away as far as I'm concerned. Each shot carries less weight.

Again, I'm not saying we should all go out and get one of these shirts. All I'm saying is that perhaps we should approach it with a different spirit.

There's a lot of truth to the statement that Christianity is filled with ignorance, intolerance and hatred. I just think more intolerance and hatred (of Pat Robertson or the guy in the Tshirt) isn't helping.

[Jason Morris]

While I firmly believe that Jesus is "the way and the truth and the life" and that "no one comes to the Father except through me," I do see a spirit of hatred being portrayed through this t-shirt. It's funny that I happened to stumble on this post on the same morning that I read about a church protesting at a local Indiana soldiers funeral because they feel American soldiers are dying because they are fighting for a country that promotes homosexuality. They paradae around with signs that say, "God Hates You", "You Will Burn In Hell", and "God Hates Fags." A lot of good those signs are doing. A lot of good that t-shirt is doing. It presents a spirit of hatred and judgment...something that seems far removed from the life and ministry of Jesus. Our Lord spent time with the worst of sinners...offering them love, grace, and mercy. I'm reminded of the words in 1 John 1:5-7, "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But, if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." T-shirts and signs that promote hatred and judgment seem to contain a lot of darkness. No wonder why so many have issues with Christians!

[fletch]

wow bob, so i supose you are stoked when pat robertson shoots off his mouth cause no one is ignorant enough to be offended by his words.

look, i spend a lot of time with folk who don't know jesus and they DO find this crap offensive and it DOES make it harder to talk to them about Jesus because they are automatically deffensive and their default position is that jesus and christians and christianity is INTOLERANT and ignorant and hateful.

but that is just based on experience.

[Bob]

Steve,

So what's the answer? More infighting among Christians widely renowned for eating their own young? How many of you have been hurt by judgementalism or back-stabbing inside the church? This one is easy, what about more subtle forms. If we continue to do the same things, we will continue to get the same result.

At the same time, do you really think the people viewing the Tshirt are so ignorant that they think "boy, if that's what God's like, I don't want to have anything to do with Him." I've found that folks in the world have a pretty good discenrment between God and His followers. (And they sure don't bear much resemblance...). If your goal is to get these people in a church, you're right, the Tshirt is hurting your efforts. If your goal is to introduce people to Jesus Christ, the Tshirt provides a vehicle.

I don't condone the wearing of the Tshirt. Just as don't condone any extreme religious behaviors which are counter to the nature and teachings of Christ. But I do see it as an opportunity to spread the Good News.

[james]

I think Steve Argue and Bernie Dehler are spot on. Thanks for your words guys.

[fr'nklin]

My initial problem with the shirt is that it misrepresents Jesus' words in John 14:6. It seems to interpret John 14:6 with ONE word: INTOLERANT. Connecting the word INTOLERANT w/ a religious symbol (Jesus) is to promote RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE which, in the 20th century, amounted to hatred and genocide. Theologically and exegetically the shirt is warped.