Outreach Convention and not forgetting Hell

I believe I have been part of the past five National Outreach Conventions. They have around 2,000 or more people at them. This year I was a main session speaker and then hung out for the rest of it. It is one convention where I always want to stay for the whole thing because the people who go to this are passionate about evangelism. The theme this year was "where mission meets innovation" and everyone acknowledged and stressed how it is the Holy Spirit who draws someone to Jesus, yet we still need to know the times and not be afraid of innovation for the sake of the gospel. Charlie Hall was the musical worship leader and he has a fascinating chin beard thing going on which I intensely stared at in great appreciation (seriously).  And he was a very gifted musical worship leader.

I had the privilege of getting to meet several people I hadn't met before and chat such as Craig Groeschel , Kem Meyer (who is someone I related to as we share the fact that we still use PC's not Macs and are not afraid to say it and believe PC's will be the new cool one day again). Had a very interesting and refreshing chat with Jonathan Falwell (son of Jerry Falwell) who is now the senior pastor of Thomas Road Baptist Church and we plan on staying in touch. Met Israel Hanna who has such an amazing story I cannot even begin to share it here, but will have to at a later time. 

Met with Ed Stetzer for close to 3 hours and chatted about everything from music to emerging/emergent to hair styles to growing up back east. Ed is one smart cookie and although we have chatted via email and phone before, this is the first time we hung out. I believe Ed would look fantastic in a rockabilly hair cut and I encourage him highly to take his hair to the next level. 

Got to have some quick catch-ups with Bob Whitesel, Mark Mittleberg and Lee Strobel and had dinner and hang out with my friend Rick McKinley from Imago Dei in Portland, and so many other people you run into and I wish time would stop and we could just hang out and talk longer. Met with Paul and Mike from Zondervan about the next books I am working on. And I love the folks at Outreach and Lynne, and Lindy from Outreach Magazine are good friends. So it is always so extremely fun to be part of this convention in so many ways.

Something else I love about this convention is something I honestly feel is often missing often in the whole emerging and emergent church conversations - and that is evangelism. I am not talking about social justice or issues of Kingdom living in the now  which is talked about and acted on a lot (thank God). I fully admit that most (not all) of the evangelical church didn't pay the attention needed to how the gospel of Jesus changes this life, not just the afterlife. A book I would suggest reading about this is Ron Sider's book "Good News and Good Works: A Theology for the Whole Gospel". Ron discusses the way Christians can polarize things to either extreme. I don't know of another book that specifically tackles this issue of the gospel of Jesus being about salvation for the life to come but also is about this life and our responsibilty we have when we believe in the gospel.

At the same time, I wonder if because we are reacting to perhaps the over-focus on the gospel being about the after-life only, that we have gone too far in response. Do we now focus so much on the gospel and Kingdom-living in this life and what that means (which is incredibly important) but we now neglect talking about the gospel's impact on the after-life? Perhaps it is fresh on my mind and heart, since my dad just died and my thinking has been about the after-life. But something I have a personal concern for is balance. As we adjust to making sure we teach and live out the good (great) news of the gospel and Kingdom living here and now in this life - that we still talk and teach about the reality of the after-life. That we still talk about heaven and we also still talk about the reality of hell. I honestly don't hear too much talk about hell in most (but not all) emerging and emergent church circles. I know it isn't pleasant to talk about. I know there is much mystery with it. I know God is the only one who knows people's eternal destinations. I know we have used "hell" in manipulative and incorrect ways. And again, I understand fully the reality of how we neglected understanding the Kingdom of God on this earth and what that means and perhaps focused too much on the after-life only when we talked about the gospel. But at the same time, how can we forget about the reality of the after-life and not talk or think about hell and heaven?

I know some of my friends may not agree with me, but I fully believe in the reality of both heaven and the eternity of a hell. I may not understand all there is to it and much of the hell imagery isn't actually biblical truth, but a poor understanding of biblical metaphors and mixing in medieval concepts that we have historically used.  But I believe from passages such as in Daniel 12:2 to a bunch of them in the New Testament which to me clearly indicate that there is an eternal separation of people in the afterlife. A horrifying and heartbreaking, gut-wrenching, mind-searing, painful thought. But a reality I personally cannot dismiss. So it doesn't mean that we take the gospel and only focus on hell, as the gospel is about this life too. But at the same time, we can't forget or dismiss the topic of hell either, which I am wondering if we are beginning to do in some circles.

I am preaching on the topic of hell at our church in 2 weeks. So between the Outreach Convention's focus on evangelism, and my dad dying and me preaching on this in two weeks - this is on my mind and heart. But I hope in emerging church (and all church circles) we don't forget the reality of hell and aren't afraid to speak about it in a balanced way. I don't mean to sound like a backwoods fundamentalist of some type here, but we must have a healthy balance of Kingdom living and the gospel being for this life and for the life to come. Hell is real and to some degree, it does motivate and compel me to never forget about evangelism and teaching about the gospel in terms of the after-life, as well as this life. I will probably write more about this, as it is a big topic and extremely important.

But... I am thankful for the Outreach Convention and the passionate people who attend who are passionate about evangelism. It is extremely thrilling and encouraging to be there. Tomorrow night I head off to Sacramento for one day. I am speaking at the California Southern Baptist Pastors Conference there. So I shall refocus and talk more about culture and evangelism and perhaps stir things a bit in a good way.   

Comments

[dauffWrella]

Ever notice that even the busiest people are never too busy to tell you
just how busy they are?

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[Jim Martin]

Dan,
I agree with you completely regarding the need for both emphases. I agree with what you are saying regarding the realities of heaven/hell.

My sympathy to you in the loss of your dad.

[Chris]

Dan, thanks (as always) for your passion for biblical truth and your compassion for the lost. I have always admired you for the ways in which you challenge convention, yet point us back to reexamine the truth in established, core doctrines.

There is no doubt that "hell" is an emotinally-charged word. It has been hijacked by some and ignored by others.

I found Zondervan's "Four Views on Hell" helpful. I landed on Crockett's position that the word is likely a metaphor that describes the worst possible fate for mankind: whether physical torment, separation from the Almighty or both.

Looking forward to your hearing your messages!

[Dan]

Patrick O ----

I like what you are saying about "judgment" and that is more what I focus on personally. I don't use "hell" for evangelism really, but what I meant was that I think of it and the reality of it, and it motivates me not to neglect evangelism. So it is more of a motivating factor, than me actually using it for evangelism.

I find when I can get somewhat introspective more about church, that as I think about the reality of judgment and that there is a hell - it compells me to break out of my own world and be praying more for people and take time during the week to intentionally break out of the Christian bubble and network of people.

I had a talk with a Christian who even works for a Christian organization and he said he is just so busy with his job, his church etc. that he doesn't have time to make the effort about meeting new people, his neighbors etc. I asked if he believes in hell, and he said yes. I then shared that for me, I want to at least be making some effort with evangelism as I cannot ponder the reality of judgment and a hell and do nothing about it. So sacrificing time with Christian friends is what I will do, in order to be making time with those outside the church. Plus, I just plain like and have fun with people outside the church and simply care about them as friends, not as evangelistic targets so to speak. Rambling here now...

[PatrickO]

I keep thinking about this. Where in Scripture was Hell used as part of evangelism? I'm not arguing, but I can't remember.

For me that's a key question. So much of the teaching of Hell isn't Scriptural at all. It's taking the references in Scripture and then attaching latter day interpretations and images and usage. Broken people in Scripture, at least, weren't preached at about Hell, if I remember correctly, they were given hope in the Kingdom. Hell was, if I remember correctly, used to comfort those who were suffering saying those who persecuted would be punished.

Which makes me agree we need to come to terms with Hell. But the emerging/missional churches need to be more ruthlessly Scriptural about it. We need to see what Scripture actually says about Hell, and more than that see where and when and how Hell is mentioned.

From what I can see Hell is mentioned about 13 times, almost all in Matthew and not once in Paul. Judgment is mentioned more, but judgment might mean something different than an eternal Hell. Shouldn't something like this affect our interpretation and use?

[Paul]

yup i agree, the emerging church have swung the pendulum to life know to correct an overswing on life in heaven playing air guitar on a cloud... personally i think we need to talk more about eternal life, resurection and the life lived now that shapes us in the life to come

[Leonard]

Dan,
As much as I dislike the idea of hell, I believe in it. Pastors have a difficult job saying things that are not easy to say. We have not met but I will pray to our heavenly Father that he guide your message on hell.

[jon]

Dan,

It's good that you brought the topic of hell up, regardless its controversial nature. Where i come from in our christian cirles (malaysia) for that matter, the topic of hell is not something of an issue. It sort of resonates with the gospel message. infact, when the gospel is presented, hell is always (to my knowledge) mentioned.

I had no problems with it before, but lately as i began reading and exposed to the whole emergent thing, my views of hell has progresively changed. Not that i dont believe in hell but that how it is presented. But at this point im still trying to grasp the whole issue of understanding hell.

Thanks for posting this again! Hell is important, and we should all come to understand how the whole issue of hell is incorporated in the gospel.

[matt]

Thanks Dan...what you say totally resonates with me...I just think we all need to check ourselves once in a while that we are doing this because we truly love our neighbor and desire relationship with them, and not as some 12 step program to get them "into" heaven. I've seen too many people give up on their neighbors once they realized they weren't interested in Jesus...and I get cynical, because if we really are Jesus to them (as the cliche goes), then what are we saying about Jesus? But I am totally with you. Just voicing my concern about making sure we keep it real.

P.S. I showed a picture of you (read: your hair) to my senior English class the other day...rave reviews--although they were loving that guy's sweet beard at the top of the page even more!.)

[Dan]

Hi Matt,

I guess I see the whole issue of thinking about judgment and the afterlife in terms of evangelism much in the same way as I do with when we help the homeless or someone in need. I don't see them as "projects" but as someone in need. Someone homeless obviously knows there need - where someone who may not know Jesus and about judgment, may not realize their need. So when talking to a neighbor or building friendships, it isn't a "project" but out of care. That is why evangelism to me is relational, not simply targets that if missed at first approach you move on to the next. When you see Paul and others in the New Testament going out from town to town, I don't think they would have called the people the talked to "projects", they had compassion on them as Jesus did. When Jesus talked to the woman at the well in John 4, it wasn't that He saw her as a "project" but He had compassion and care for her and desired that she drink "living water". So for me, that is how I see it where people then don't become projects as I understand you are asking about.....Hope this is making sense!

Dan

[matt]

Dan, thanks for this. Some colleagues at our school have gone round and round on this discussion. It still leads me with lots of questions, mostly revolving around the idea that if hell motivates us to build relationship with our neighbors, than are we really in danger of turning our neighbors into projects? I wonder how they would feel about that. I don't think we can dismiss the topic of hell either, I just haven't really seen a real balance approach on it: people with want to seem to dismiss it or get real fired up about it. Either way, thanks for the continues pushes and nudges, and the balance you provide. I hope all is well, I'm still hoping we can get you up to Canada soon. Our students/staff/parents need to hear you.

[Tom Clegg]

Dan,

It was great to connect.

I am always blessed by your heart.

Send me your address and I'll make sure you get the new book.

Peace,

Tom

[Dan]

Hi Rick, not sure what you mean by that comment.

Randy, yes, i got your email i will be email you! thank you!

Dan

[Randy (South Texas)]

Brother Dan,

Did you get my email?

~Randy

[Rick]

Sounds like Doug's friend is taking your advice to "Don't Be a Christian." Congratulations.

[Nobody]

Nothing like the thought of billions suffering eternally to make you fully appreciate being born in North America...

*sigh*

[Dan]

Randy!

hey, what is your email or web address? i wanted to email you.

Dan

[Randy (South Texas)]

Brother Dan,

Once again, THANK YOU for your balance. I am part of an "emergent" church, and I do think the church I hang-out with has "swung too far in response" to many things, including the one you are addressing. And it is very discouraging to me.

To me, you do not "sound like a backwoods fundamentalist of some type". I think you are speaking balanced truth in love and kindness on a very difficult topic. And for that, I see courage, compassion, vulnerability, etc. And I admire you for it. It's easy to go with popular thought, not so easy to do the opposite.

You said you are preaching on the topic of hell in 2 weeks. Is there ANY way, PLEASE, for us to get some kind of notes, recording, media, anything on this? (Hey man, I live in South Texas, and I don't even know how long it would take me to drive to Santa Cruz! Even though the idea of good surf is enticing! ...chuckle...)

Blessings to you brother Dan, to your family, and to those you minister to and with. I continue to pray for you and your family especially, like you asked everyone to.

~Randy

[Shane Vander Hart]

Great post Dan, I have felt that way about the Emerging church as well (at least as represented by the Emergent Village). The Gospel shouldn't be one or the other, but both and.

[PatrickO]

Dan, along with considerations of the Holy Spirit understanding eternity/future/eschatology is, I think, one of the biggest theological weaknesses of the emerging/missional church. With the Holy Spirit, at least, there is sort of an instinctive reaction and response that comes out in key priorities. But I don't see that in regards to eschatology.

Likely, as you said, because for a couple hundred years hell-fire has been a primary, over-used evangelical method. Scare 'em into heaven. So we need to come to terms with Scripture. Not just about Hell though. I think the way for the emerging/missional church to find a distinction is to convey eternity it terms of a holistic understanding of God's future. What do we look forward to? What is God about in time beyond time?

Dispensational theology in general is faulty and provokes a strong desire to avoid "Left Behind" stereotypes. The book of Revelation is not just about Hell, it's about heaven, about deliverance, about hope and light and triumph. We need to talk about these things, putting Hell into it's rightful perspective.

Personally, as with a lot of topics I think Moltmann's work could be very instructional. His In the End, the Beginning: Life of Hope is a great resource.

To me that's the key: Hope. We need to find a teaching on eternity that conveys the Scriptural emphasis on hope, not the Christendom emphasis on destruction. We need to teach the Kingdom still, not just the Kingdom among us, but the Kingdom yet to be. We let that hope be the beacon of light to those who desperately need hope, and have seen the churches teaching on hell full of anything but hope.

[Mark Pike]

Dan, I appreciate your thoughts on the topic of sin and hell. Don't worry about sounding like a backwoods fundamentalist, they don't have a corner on preaching on this subject. If we don't preach on sin and on grace then we haven't preached the gospel of Christ. It is gratitude for grace and forgiveness that leads to kingdom living. If we don't understand that we have sinned and need the grace of Jesus, then everything else is posing. Thank you for your post.

[Dan]

Doug,

that is actually the focus of the sermon i am giving in 2 weeks. so i will have to get back to you....

[Doug]

Great topic!

I've had an ongoing discussion with a man who is de-converting from Christianity, for a lot of reasons, but one of the main ones is this.

How can a loving God sentence a group of people to hell? Christianity is too exclusionary, and a loving God wouldn't be.

I'm honestly not sure how to answer him other than the very Christian-eze response containing choice and consequence.

Any thoughts?

[donsands]

"But at the same time, we can't forget or dismiss the topic of hell either, which I am wondering if we are beginning to do in some circles."

Amen, and amen.

When one reconizes that he deserves hell for his sins, and that Christ willfully suffered the excruciatingly painful death on a Cross for these sins, and then crys out to Christ for forgiveness, and trusts in Him, and experiences the goodness of God that leads to repentance, then one will desire to share what Jesus taught about hell, so that others may come to fear God, and cry out for mercy as well.

[John]

Hi Dan,

I skimmed the other comments here so my apologies if these thoughts are repetitive:

I've struggled a lot with a theology of hell, having origins in both Roman Catholic and Pentecostal/Holiness theologies. I agree that it's been severely misused as a manipulative, fear-based apologetic intended to get coverts with little concern for abundant, kingdom life here and now.

On the other hand, living beyond the fear of hell and damnation can lead to a kind of boisterous licentiousness that might characterize a fringe element of the emergent movement. Sometimes its the fringe that gets a lions' share of our attention.

One idea that I don't think you fleshed out in your blog post I'm sure you'll address to some degree in your pulpit time: that the separation between this life and the next is somewhat artificial; and that we are actually living our eternity and establishing God's kingdom here and now. Whether you believe in a cataclysmic literal end of days or the gradual renewal of the universe (a broad consensus, interestingly enough, between evangelicals and liberal humanists would probably lean toward Armageddon) I think most followers of Jesus would agree that a true balance in our eschatology starts with realizing that our lives now have everything to do with our lives on the other side.

Thanks for keepin' it real. Even though I take serious issue with your Mac vs. PC comment. How can anyone defend Vista?! :)

[Steve]

Dan,

I'm a church planter in the Sac. area and I've checked your blog out from time to time. Glad I did to day. I could not agree more with your statement of "I honestly don't hear too much talk about hell in most (but not all) emerging and emergent church circles." It's a real issue with real ramifications. Jesus talked about Hell in such phrases as "where the worm never dies." I'f we're really seriouis about being "missional" then we have to be serioius about this as well. Relationships are important. But if we're in a burning house with a broken leg, we really don't care if we have a relationship with the fireman, we just want out.
Even on the whole eternity thing, I agree that the Kingdom of God begins in the here and now, but Bible actually talks a lot about eternal focus. We are encouraged to "set our hearts and minds on the things above." Actually, when folks do that, and they realize that they aren't taking their wealth with them, they begin to open their hands a lot more freely to give to the poor.

So anyway, thanks Dan for all you do. Keep up the good work on your end.

PS. Hang in there. My dad passed away a few years ago also.

steve

[Ben P.]

Dan, have you read Tim Keller's article "Preaching Hell in a tolerant age"? (http://www.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/DeathDying/preachinghell.htm) It is excellent. The main premise I think is that hell is something that we consciously choose and is just an extension of the brokenness and lostness people feel apart from God in this life extending to eternity.

[Dan]

David---

thank you for the Ed in the new hair cut. if he was to actually get his hair like that, his missional effectiveness would increase 35%, his teaching abilities would increase 24%.

[Dan]

Mike,

As I said, it is hard to understand what exactly hell will be and i think "judgment" is a good way to look at it knowing God knows what it will be.

I do hope that pastors and church leaders are doing their best using time and praying every day about the reality of a hell in terms of people.

[Mike]

Dan, we can at least agree that there is judgment in the next life, but if the punishment to come is retributive, vindictive, eternal and hopeless then why aren't we foregoing careers, recreation and sleep in order to snatch people from the burning? The evidence of our lifestyles suggests that none of us believes on a practical level in the pagan conceptions of Hell that have been imported into Christianity.

Peace,
Mike

[David Phillips]

Dan...the comments didn't include my links, so:

Ed with the haircut:
http://www.wdavidphillips.com/2007/11/12/ed-stetzer-as-dan-kimball/

Ed talking about Dan calling him out:
http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/2007/11/some_suggestions_for_me_1.html

[David Phillips]

Dan,

Since Ed has understood your post as a "calling out" about his hair, I've done a mock up of Ed with a rockabilly hair cut. I'd like to know what you think...

[Fred]

Good post. I think the pendulum has swung too far to the Kingdom only in this life side in some emerging circles. Your call for balance is very much needed to help that pendulum swing more to the center.

[Nathan]

Dan, thanks for a thought-provoking post. The reality of hell is something that's messed me up for a long time. I believe hell exists, but I was kind of upset with God about it. But recently I was thinking about it, and I realized that my biggest problem regarding hell is that I'm pathetic when it comes to evangelism. If the reality of hell truly resonated with me, I'd be much more motivated to tell people about Jesus. So your post really resonated with me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Will your upcoming message be podcast?

[jon]

alas, i will be in europe in 2 weeks so i will miss the hell talk. but i will rejoice, for i will be in europe (with a short stay in your former town).

[Dan]

Hi Tyler,
Southern Baptists overall have a passion for evangelism, and I really love that about them - although the ways we evangelize in our culture is what I will be talking about.

[Tyler]

Wow speaking at a southern baptist convention. Didn't you write a post not too far back about alcohol and southern baptists? Well anyway, thanks for the message on hell. I think a balance approach like you have presented works well.

[Arnau van Wyngaard]

Dan, thanks for your post. I'm sorry to hear about your dad. When my own father died about seven years ago I remember that I said to my family how someone who rejects the thought of an everlasting life can ever cope with a situation like that.
I also appreciate your statement about hell. I think the mistake that was made in the past was that we tried to get people into heaven because they were afraid to go to hell. Many, on the grounds of this, rejected the reality of hell. While I've never been there or know anyone who returned from there, I think that there is enought proof in the Bible that hell is indeed a reality, as opposed to heaven, whatever and wherever that may be. Thanks for a great blog.